Konrad Göth's PK appeal

[ThirdEye]

Character's name & rank: Konrad Göth, Konteradmiral

SteamID32: STEAM_0:0:536630841

Staff member who issued the PK (if you know): Prime

Explain why you were PK'd: On orders of NHC, I believe for a MOI raid that took place about 2 days ago 

Why should you be un-PK'd?: There are a lot of reasons why I believe that this PK wasn't just. 
It starts off with my detainment. I was killed by an (I believe aimbotting) RDM'ing Minge Civ who was screaming the N-Word while killing me, forcing me to respawn. At the back of the BB right where I spawned, I was looking up his ID to take further action; however, it was then that, all of a sudden, a Polizeianwärter of the LaPo pulled a gun to my head and tied me up. He then removed my uniform and dragged me to the MOI. At the MOI I would be held in a room for, in total, about 1 hour and 40 minutes, most of the time blindfolded, and only really interacted with whenever the 15-minute timer was running. Until a NSB agent entered the room and informed me that I deserved to die because I had been too antagonistic towards the MOI and for "running to the MOI with a gun, attempting to shoot people."  After that, he shot me. 

The main reason behind the NHC order, as far as I know, was an NSB case file against me for having the GSD Chief detained and apparently being near the MOI while it was being raided.
I never ordered a raid on the MOI, nor is that being claimed in any document in the NSB casefile. The situation was that the LaPo detained a Fregattenkapitän, and I requested the GSD chief and demanded from him to have the Fregattenkapitän released because there was never a warrant for him and his detention violated the Interior and War Ministers agreement. The GSD Chief then said that the Fregattenkapitän has been released, after which I was told to speak with one other Oberst and Oberstleutnant of the Military. They told me that their men would be ready to raid and were awaiting my green light. I told them that my man has already been released and I therefore have no reason to have the MOI raid, but then they told me that the NSB still had detainees of the Military inside their cells. When I confronted the GSD General regarding that, he denied that claim and said that my man had been released. Then, however, the GSD Chief decided to go outside the MOI alone while being heavily outnumbered for some reason. When I then had him surrounded, some men tied him up. I don't recall directly ordering his detainment, but I did have him surrounded and didn't stop the men that tied him and dragged him to the Bendlerblock. At that point, I had achieved everything I could have possibly wanted, since I personally didn't really believe the Oberst and Oberstleutnant, since I thought that they just wanted to bait me so that they'd be able to raid something and shoot people. I was getting ready to leave the area, but some enlisted kept opening the side gates, provoking the KG, even though they had no orders to do so. Then I believe it was the KG who opened fire on the members of the Heer and Marines. They then all started to shoot each other and automatically started to storm the building. I made broadcasts to report to the left MOI gate, but only after the MOI had opened fire and never gave direct orders to raid the building. It were the enlisted who started the entire situation, not the actual Roleplay. Since my man was already released at that point, I had no reason to order the raid on the MOI. 

There were only a combined of 3  incident reports and witness statements, from the entirety of the MOI that was present, in the case file as evidence against me. Furthermore, in the NSB casefile that was made against me, my department was constantly referred to as "Kriegsmarine".  That term is outdated in this timeline, and therefore it is questionable if the casefile itself should even be considered IC, as it is mainly filled with a FailRP term.

Lastly, my PK was not used as a last resort. I was never taken to court, never summoned, and I was never actually interrogated, questioned, or even spoken to or communicated with in any way shape or form about the things that I had done before I was PK'd. I was instead left blindfolded in a room, stuffed props (hot dogs) into my mouth, and paraded around the MOI lobby to play with the NSB-Generaldirektor in the MOI fountain as his "pet".

Additional Information: My death that lead up to my detainment: https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/2ddbMemydQjI-f/d1337jeS6gKJ?invite=cr-MSxROGosMTgwMTgyMzk0LA

[Ferret]

Good Afternoon, 

You know me, the people love me; it's your benevolent Chancellor. Let's delve into the details a little further just to examine the situation at hand in depth, know that this is coming from a third party, a non-factor in your death.

The first point that I bring to attention is the clip that you present as evidence, within the clip you willingly engage in a gunfight with two civilians that were not actively firing at you; you may say that they were firing at other members of the military, but I would claim much like you that is heresay and is neither here 'nor there.

The second point that arises is the issue of the 'incident reports' that claim that you detained the General, that is hardcore evidence signed by people that are willing to stake their lives on that information. There has long been a history of allowing roleplay to occur, in this scenario, you yourself along with your Marines antagonized the Interior Ministry and its subsidiary organizations for days on end without reprieve. I'd imagine that if your building was raided everyday and your men tied up consistently that you'd call for the head of a leading figure that was apart of those operations; this is standard in roleplay, you imagined that you were just going to walk all over these people without consequence, this is your consequence. 

Trying to usher in a concept that has been long-forgotten within the community of general-ranking officers being needlessly detained is difficult, I will admit, you backed the snake into a corner and it bit you; you're surprised by this?

Edited May 15 by FerretWithAHat

[ThirdEye]

3 hours ago, FerretWithAHat said:

you willingly engage in a gunfight with two civilians that were not actively firing at you; you may say that they were firing at other members of the military, but I would claim much like you that is heresay and is neither here 'nor there.

I don't know how this could be viewed as heresay, but at the start of the clip the civilian very clearly kills the only other 2 people I was patrolling with.

 

3 hours ago, FerretWithAHat said:

The second point that arises is the issue of the 'incident reports' that claim that you detained the General, that is hardcore evidence signed by people that are willing to stake their lives on that information.

There is only 1 of the in total 3 reports that claims I ordered the detainment of the GSD Chief.

One other reports mentions the scene as "The Generalinspektor walks outside of the MOI gates for an unknown reason and is arrested by the military.". It doesn't even mention my name in the scene where the General was detained.

And the third report of the case file doesn't even mention the GSD General being detained at all.

And as I have said it before, I do not recall ever ordering the General to be detained. And there is only 1 report claiming that I did. So if there is any proof, besides that 1 report, of me ordering the Generals detainment I would like to request to to be posted here.

3 hours ago, FerretWithAHat said:

Good Afternoon, 

You know me, the people love me; it's your benevolent Chancellor. Let's delve into the details a little further just to examine the situation at hand in depth, know that this is coming from a third party, a non-factor in your death.

The first point that I bring to attention is the clip that you present as evidence, within the clip you willingly engage in a gunfight with two civilians that were not actively firing at you; you may say that they were firing at other members of the military, but I would claim much like you that is heresay and is neither here 'nor there.

The second point that arises is the issue of the 'incident reports' that claim that you detained the General, that is hardcore evidence signed by people that are willing to stake their lives on that information. There has long been a history of allowing roleplay to occur, in this scenario, you yourself along with your Marines antagonized the Interior Ministry and its subsidiary organizations for days on end without reprieve. I'd imagine that if your building was raided everyday and your men tied up consistently that you'd call for the head of a leading figure that was apart of those operations; this is standard in roleplay, you imagined that you were just going to walk all over these people without consequence, this is your consequence. 

Trying to usher in a concept that has been long-forgotten within the community of general-ranking officers being needlessly detained is difficult, I will admit, you backed the snake into a corner and it bit you; you're surprised by this?

In the rest of your statement you only talk about the history of roleplay and that consequences must follow for my actions. 

Did I think that there will be no consequences for the way I antagonized them? No, of course not. But this was not used as a last resort as it is stated in the PK Guidelines. I could have been taken to court, I could have been questioned, summoned, as a consequence. No of that occured. Now if the NSB wouldn't have been this lazy in their report writing then I would probably understand this more, if they would for an example have 5-8 reports claiming that I detained the GSD Chief and raided the MOI. But there is like I said only 1 report claiming that I ordered the GSD Chief's detainment, and not a single report claiming that I ordered the Raid on the MOI. 

1 In the first report the raid was described as this: "The Military then raided the MOI for absolutely no reason and killed many members of the MOI."

2 In the second report the raid was described as this: "An officer of the Kaisergarde ordered his men to fire if another member of the military attempted to break in. This did happen and the Kaisergarde began opening fire, which warranted a response in-kind from the military. The MOI became under full siege by the military, who almost broke in from each side gate multiple times. The MOI was held and did not come under occupation from the military."

3 In the third report the raid was described as this: "Through Raido they took most of the LAPO and placed them under arrest and then one of them used our radios to tell us to surrender and because there was no broadcast from the other branches to surrender I refused"

In none of those reports is my name even mentioned when talking about the raid. 

3 hours ago, FerretWithAHat said:

I'd imagine that if your building was raided everyday and your men tied up consistently that you'd call for the head of a leading figure that was apart of those operations

Here I agree that you would call for the head a leading figure in this, but then again where is the evidence that I lead a raid on the MOI. None of the reports from the case file mention me leading the raid.

[leo]

simply,

you got caught.

we had evidence (some not even in that case file)

and you got killed.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17 by leo

[ThirdEye]

10 hours ago, leo said:

simply,

you got caught.

we had evidence (some not even in that case file)

and you got killed.

 

 

 

 

You might have had more evidence than just the ones in the file, but you did not use the PK as a last resort.

You never questioned me, summoned me or even attempted to bring me to court for the things.

You could have done so many other things before just going for a PK. However you did not. 

[Browniemeister]

Hi there, I PK'ed you on order of NHC. 

Your argument seems to lie in the fact that I did not exhaust all options before executing a PK on you, which we either did or they were blocked. Generals and seemingly everyone on the server is so entrenched in the idea that you HAVE to be taken to court in order for a PK to be accepted. While this is sometimes the case, it lies in the case-by-case basis in which your PK fell as an exception to that "standard" that has been dreamt of. 

We had exhausted all our options, how are we to question you when you open fire upon us when enforcing a warrant or constantly raiding the MOI? How are we going to bring you to court when the Justice Minister orders my arrest illegally in conjunction with the War Marshal, how are we to summon you on top of all the reasons we've provided and then some?

Your faction was constantly raiding our Ministry, evidence pointed towards YOU being the perpetrator. We still receive evidence damning your character that had either A. Ordered these Raids, B. Did nothing about them when you were the highest on or C. Involved in these raids. The Marines nonstop raided the Ministry of the Interior with oftentimes no clause and when there was one, it was for like breaking out a random Grenadier. 

I am not humoring the roleplay of constantly raiding when something doesn't go my way, which you fell victim too, and were appropriately punished. You may claim that we did not "exhaust all options" when your own generals and people subordinate to you got you in this mess. I also don't appreciate revealing documents that have been used in active roleplay on your PK appeal, exposing an investigation into a general that just so happens to go missing... moron. Another argument you present is that a old, returning, player be punished for accidentally using the wrong suffix for a faction and therefore invalidates your PK? That's retarded and you know it, pulling at straws. 

While I understand the roleplay of the situation wasn't the best, that lead to IC consequences for the people involved and they have been appropriately punished, again not invalidating the PK. You escalated incidents that didn't need to be escalated, were found out, then punished. Have a better control on your subordinates. 

Sometimes you are roleplayed at and not with, please keep that in mind next time you make an appeal.

 

 

 

 

[ThirdEye]

12 hours ago, Browniemeister said:

We had exhausted all our options, how are we to question you when you open fire upon us when enforcing a warrant or constantly raiding the MOI? How are we going to bring you to court when the Justice Minister orders my arrest illegally in conjunction with the War Marshal, how are we to summon you on top of all the reasons we've provided and then some?

In this response you are acting like as if it were impossible for you to simply summon me via an advertisement.  You had more than 1 thousand options to at least try, but you never even tried to enforce a warrant on me, summon me, or question me. There wasn't even an attempt made. Your first solution was to immediately PK me without any other actual RP coming from you. 

How do you know that you'd immediately be fired upon when you never even tried to enforce a warrant on me?

 

12 hours ago, Browniemeister said:

We still receive evidence damning your character that had either A. Ordered these Raids, B. Did nothing about them when you were the highest on or C. Involved in these raids. The Marines nonstop raided the Ministry of the Interior with oftentimes no clause and when there was one, it was for like breaking out a random Grenadier. 

You receiving some "evidence" (less than a handfull of witness statements) doesn't change the fact, that I never ordered the MOI Raid or escalated the situation in the first place, but that it was the Kaisergarde who opened fire first on the Military outside of the MOI. When on other occasions some lone Marine enlisted decided to raid the MOI, how would that make me responsible when I never gave them the order to do so?

 

12 hours ago, Browniemeister said:

Another argument you present is that a old, returning, player be punished for accidentally using the wrong suffix for a faction and therefore invalidates your PK? That's retarded and you know it, pulling at straws. 

 Him being an "old, and returning, player" doesn't change the fact, that using outdated NS terminology, in a Imperial document, ruins the entire context of the document. Like for an example if the MGD had a massive case file on the NSB Chief, but in stead of referring to the NSB as NSB, they were constantly referring to it as RSHA in every single document. That would be retarded and it should be agreed upon that documents constantly filled with FailRP terms should be voided and considered OOC. 

[Browniemeister]

Ok. So seemingly it is lost upon you and we're going around in circles so I'll reinforce my point.

We did not need to summon you in specific, as you, the Ministry of Justice and High Command of the Armed Forces would not permit such actions from us. Stating that it is unlawful and such as previously stated. We also did not need to summon you in particular when we had already summarized your attitude as to how it'd go as we can see in this clip:

https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/2dc1vbvNNSp9a2/d1337pvWtoUB?invite=cr-MSwzaVEsMjgwODk5OTYs

In this clip, we see a situation transpiring at the front of the ICC where two PCO's are being enforced on the Director of the NSB at the time and the Chief of the Landespoliezi. You had decided to say both are invalid over reasons that are completely bogus, you denied the NSB General warrant because it was missing "NSB" that's like during 1942rp denying an SS warrant because it was missing the "SS-" suffix. It's retarded. You then denied the warrant on Erwin Konig because it was missing an N on it... Then, instead of deescalating the situation with the citizen you had immediately escalated.  

"Oh they opened fire, they opened fire" You said these words assuming no consequence would come from them. We had, indeed, went through all our options. The Military had detained me for enforcing lawful warrants, you had opened fire on my men, I was against everyone for no reason but because they could. You are responsible for the acts of your subordinates if you are standing right infront of them and do nothing to stop them. I hate the precedent some try to set when a Grenadier opens fire during some situation, because the General didn't immediately step in they are responsible. That is dumb. 

But that is not what you did, you were written down as leading marches, being involved in detainments of MOI personnel, gunning down NSB enforcing lawful warrants, the list goes on. The last time I had tried to meet with you, the General of the Infantry had gotten involved then the Kriegsmarschall. How are we to discuss "taking a thousand different routes" when you ignore the routes that we did go through.

And regarding your "point" with the Kriegsmarine, there is difference between a historical german organization that had been named BLANKmarine for a century before 1940 and then one most infamous organizations that you don't say their name ever. Mistakes happen on these documents, but do you really think that going "THIS IS NOW ALL INVALIDATED." is how you do that? IC punishments were given out for mistakes. 

This is my last answer on the topic, thank you. 

Edited May 19 by Browniemeister

[Slug]

Hello @ThirdEye,

Thank you for taking the time to make a PK Appeal.

While I agree that some parts of this PK fall below the typical "standard" (i.e. the witness report referring to the "Kriegsmarine"), these small discrepancies would not invalidate the underlying report/reasonings that led to your PK. I believe @Browniemeisterstated a lot of points well in why this PK was approved by @Prime and then carried out.

Our PK Guidelines state that appeals are accepted on the basis that the PK did not follow proper guidelines, and while I believe some parts of this could have been executed better, the PK itself did adhere to proper guideline requirements.

If you have any further questions feel free to reach out to my DMs.

 

Appeal: Denied
Thread: Locked