Adalbert Herzfeld PK Appeal

[warfarealert]

Character's name and Rank: Battalionsleiter Adalbert Herzfeld

 

SteamID32: STEAM_0:1:127396338

 

Staff member who issued the PK: Aurelius of Phoenix

 

Explain why you were PK'd: 

I am writing to formally request the reversal of the permanent kill (PK) decision regarding my character, Battalionsleiter Adalbert Herzfeld. I believe the ruling was made in error and would like to present my case for why my character should be revived.

During the event in question, the reason given for the PK approval was that I allegedly used a radio while under fear roleplay (RP). However, I believe there has been a misunderstanding of the situation.

 

Why should you be un-PK'd?: 

I used the radio only when one soldier was within visual range. At that time, there were two of us with weapons out, indicating that we were not yet outgunned and could potentially defend ourselves. As soon as the second and third soldiers came into visual range, I stopped using the radio, recognizing that we were outgunned and thus adhering to fear RP rules. However, I was not given any time or opportunity to adhere to fear RP after that point and was shot immediately. Note: Only 1 second passed between stopping and being shot. 

The rules state that a character can be PKed if not abiding by fear RP. Given that I stopped and ceased using the radio when the situation escalated and we were clearly outgunned, I believe I was fully compliant with fear RP guidelines.

I have a video recording of the event which clearly shows the sequence of events and my adherence to the fear RP rules. The video demonstrates that my character used the radio only when we had a fighting chance based on my visual view of the situation in first person. And that I, however briefly due to the 1 second kill time, stopped using the radio as soon as it became apparent that we were outgunned.

Given the above points and the supporting evidence, I kindly request that the PK decision be reviewed and overturned. My character's actions were in compliance with the established rules, and the PK ruling appears to have been made based on an incomplete understanding of the situation.

I appreciate your consideration in this matter and look forward to your response.

 

Additional Information: 

The clip showing the other party's point of view:

https://medal.tv/?contentId=ii0WPQImcO4riLzz1&invite=cr-MSxIYUYsMjQ3OTQ1MDcyLA&spok=r88GYKEUm7OZ

Please note on the video: The 2nd and 3rd gunman are in visual range at 7 seconds. I am on the radio at that time. I stop and am shot at 8 seconds.  That is a 1 second window to stop, analyze the situation, and react. That is why we normally call for a 5-10 second warning period with most violent action. The counterargument will be that the radio presents a present threat, however the the individuals running up on me had time to plan their response, I did not.

 

[Friedhart Thone]

I was involved in this matter on the Marine/Military side. Although I do recognize that I am not the one who requested the PK.

There is a clear timeframe of which he had the ability to radio before he and his comrade were truly outnumbered, not to mention the sub-section regarding use of radio whilst under gunpoint, its not really mentioned, hell I'll admit many members of the MGD and NSB don't know or have forgotten that this stringent little sub-section exists. Even I forgot about this subsection and I've been here for quite some time!
 

I would push for Adalbert Herzfeld to be unpked! Thank you!

Edited July 18 by Friedhart Thone

[Hound]

It doesn't matter if they're "in visual range". You knew they were trying to detain you, so you decided to alert your whole faction by saying "We're being detained at the ICC" at least 3 times. You had ample time to stop, and chose not to.

The fact that the PK guidelines don't specifically mention using radios while under FearRP doesn't matter; you're informing your faction members of information which could lead to severe legal repercussions against those who were detaining you.

I will wait for @Aurelius of Phoenix and @dawgto reply, as well as for you to provide any further insight, before I make a decision on this.

[Peepers]

Ok, so this is interesting, and we have video evidence. 

Quote

It doesn't matter if they're "in visual range". You knew they were trying to detain you, so you decided to alert your whole faction by saying "We're being detained at the ICC" at least 3 times. You had ample time to stop, and chose not to.

So the individual who was PK'd entered the ICC through invitation, and left through invitation, so there's no natural assumption of hostility to that point. He's clearly walking and not running, and he's not going for the ladder, he's going to the gate. So we have to assume he didn't believe he was under duress. In addition, at no point do either individuals look behind them or turn around, so we have to assume they only could see what was infront of them.

At 04:00 what is infront of them is one individual with a weapon vs 2 individuals with weapons drawn saying "you're being detained." At that point, he has a good argument that he's not under FearRP. He can reasonably assume that 2 v 1, he can win that situation. After hearing "you're being detained, he walks 4 steps, for a total of 2 seconds before coming to a stop. During this moment he's radioing in. He then turns and sees another individual with a gun on him, making it a 2 v 2 situation, still not overwhelming odds in Fear RP (you could argue SMG vs pistols, but I don't think that's how the rules work). He cannot at this point (06:00) see the third individual and he does not turn to face that individual. By 07:00, one second later he is at a complete stop and abiding fear RP. He's told shut up, and stops reporting on his radio. 

Less than one second later he's killed...

I've been playing this game mode for many years. I have a guard unit attached to me, and I've played many times, factions that arrest/kidnap etc. people. I have traditionally, and my guards currently have a 10 second timer to react to fear RP. Now it doesn't always go the full 10 seconds, but usually an individual has time to stop and react to Fear RP. Sometimes they use their radio, and in those instances tradition dictates that the individual is tied and the radio either taken or turned off.

In those instances, we're talking about 10+ seconds of RP. This entire instance is less than 2 seconds of RP. In addition, the Kommodore dies (assumingly instigating the shootout) and faces NO PK. 

If we want to set the bar to a 1-2 second reaction time, that's fine, but like the tax code, i'm going to use it in the future. 

+1 UN-PK

Also, my involvement is that I witnessed this coming out of the sewers, and spoke to both parties on scene who both agreed the PK was a mistake. 

Edited July 18 by Peepers

[Butch]

Hi, I was the Marine who had requested the detainment of warfarealert and his buddy. 

As stated by Thone, many members of the MGD and NSB do now know that the sub-section exists. I didn't even know about that until this situation occurred. He had very little time to process the information and react. And he did stop using his radio when told to. But, he is still killed for it. It was a very fast-paced situation and our reaction to it was very primitive. We had very little time to think rationally and react accordingly. It was very much a dog bite reaction on our part. Now that we have had time to think about it, we would like to reverse the PK. 

I am not very big on second chances when it comes to "common sense", but I believe that warfarealert deserves that second chance with Adalbert. 

+1 UN-PK

Edited July 18 by Butch

[warfarealert]

9 hours ago, Hound said:

It doesn't matter if they're "in visual range". You knew they were trying to detain you, so you decided to alert your whole faction by saying "We're being detained at the ICC" at least 3 times. You had ample time to stop, and chose not to.

The fact that the PK guidelines don't specifically mention using radios while under FearRP doesn't matter; you're informing your faction members of information which could lead to severe legal repercussions against those who were detaining you.

I will wait for @Aurelius of Phoenix and @dawgto reply, as well as for you to provide any further insight, before I make a decision on this.

I had no knowledge that I would be detained. I was invited to leave on my own volition and I did. I walked calmly to the gates and intended to wait for them to be opened. I saw the first individual attempt to detain and wasn't sure if this was someone screwing with me or this was a serious attempt. I radioed in as trained and In the 2 seconds between that moment and being killed I wasn't sure what to do. I stopped once I realized there were multiple people involved.

[Aurelius of Phoenix]

Hey I was the staff member who approved this PK, I wanna thank you for using the forums and making an appeal. 
 

you were Pked on the grounds of breaking fear rp, while under active gunpoint you radioed into your guys stating people were detaining you. As this isn’t a written rule, but using your radio and stating to your Allies that you’re being detained while surrounded and under gunpoint is going to end in your death. This should be stated for all but its in my eyes common sense to some and others not.

[warfarealert]

8 hours ago, Aurelius of Phoenix said:

Hey I was the staff member who approved this PK, I wanna thank you for using the forums and making an appeal. 
 

you were Pked on the grounds of breaking fear rp, while under active gunpoint you radioed into your guys stating people were detaining you. As this isn’t a written rule, but using your radio and stating to your Allies that you’re being detained while surrounded and under gunpoint is going to end in your death. This should be stated for all but its in my eyes common sense to some and others not.

Totally understandable, but since the circumstances of this PK are a matter of 1 to 2 seconds, since the opposing party supports the appeal, and since there’s at least some grey area around the rule, would I be able to win an appeal in this case?

[dawg]

Hey, I was the staff member who took your PK ticket.

You had numerous guns pointed at you and were surrounded while being told not to move. As someone of your rank, you should understand the rules of FearRP, yet you kept moving. You were then blocked in after refusing to cooperate. After realizing you were blocked in (while still having guns pointed at you), you decided to radio in and alert people of your arrest, which is unrealistic. For example, you wouldn't scream for help if someone was pointing a gun at your head (as I mentioned in the sit). As a Battallionsleiter, you should be familiar with the PK guidelines. Many people have been PK'd for less, and it's rules like this that keep the roleplay exciting and realistic.

[Peepers]

@dawg, respectfully, your accounting is completely contrary to what is shown on that video. 

 

Between 3 to 6 seconds, he has 1 KM in camera view. At 7 seconds, the second individual crosses in front of him with gun drawn. He immediately stops and is shot less than 1 second later. 

 

How has nobody here quoted Rule 3 of FearRP in the ImperialRP Rules section?

Quote

1. If you're holding someone under FearRP and are issuing them orders/warnings to not do something, and they disobey you, then you may kill them; however, it should not be your first choice of action. In this situation, one single warning/order will not suffice, multiple warnings in a very short time span will also not suffice, you must give them adequate time to react. When in game, you are actively a part of the roleplay, and therefore you must also be actively aware of your environment as well. Any excuses such as “I couldn’t hear them because my headset was turned off” will not be permitted. Outside elements of the game cannot be used as an excuse to avoid FearRP or being PK’d (i.e. being AFK).

This rule was clearly violated in this PK. Less than 1 second given to react to the orders of the second and third gunmen. 

Quote

1. If you are actively holding a weapon in your hand, FearRP does not apply and you may retaliate (even if it is on safety, E+R)

This applies to both VW agents. They both have weapons in hand when the 1 KM Officer is in view. Therefore, they are not under FearRP at this time. 

Quote

Any excuses such as “I couldn’t hear them because my headset was turned off” will not be permitted.

This would be the counter-argument. However, You can see on the clip below (the one posted originally) that only the only voice giving orders is the KM officer until 6 seconds into the clip. The individual is then shot and PK'd at 9 seconds. Again...Rule #1, the individual must be given adequate time to react and obey. 2.5 seconds is the time in this case. 

CLIP

Edited July 23 by Peepers

[Beach]

Hello, 
I assisted Dawg getting the clip approved and helped him out with the PK. 
Mostly everything has been addressed here thank you to @dawgand @Aurelius of Phoenix

Just want to point out the situation more at hand.
This individual is a Battalionsleiter of the Volkswacht inside the military base.
He, as a senior commissioned officer should understand entering bases that are not yours can lead to RP consequences. 
The individual clearly realized he was under gun point by stopping. 

However, the individual threw away care for his life by radioing for help in the situation. 
The individuals detaining him not wanting backup from the Volkswacht to arrive shot him.
The precedence set in regards to this is, radioing while under FearRP is breaking it.

The individuals were under FearRP 100%. 
They were in a military base and multiple voices were telling them to stop they had ample time to respond to this which they did then broke.
The precedence set for radioing under FearRP should not be changed because of "Visual Range".

Thank you.

[Sppoky]

You clearly were yelling "We are being detained at the ICC" even when under gunpoint

-1

[Coffee]

Denied.

You had multiple players surrounding you and pointing guns at you and you decided to radio in for backup whilst you were under gunpoint.

This is a clear fear RP PK in my eyes.